Anna ([info]troubleinchina) wrote,
@ 2007-08-31 20:19:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Current mood: annoyed
Entry tags:friday thoughts

Friday Discussion: Not Here For Your Entertainment
The so-called sexy outfit that means I deserve itI have spent the last few weeks wondering whether or not I should wear a sweater. In Australia. A really big sweater that covers as much of me as possible. And maybe a hat. With a big floppy brim.

Because wow am I ever sick of street harassment. And wow am I ever sick of feeling like I can't talk about it.

It must, I think, be something I am doing. You know, wearing my office attire when at the internet cafe, so I started wearing over-sized t-shirts, but that didn't help. Or maybe it was that I lost some weight and somehow this takes me off "shouting insults out of car windows" territory into "oogling breasts and suggesting sexual positions" territory, so maybe I should stop with the water and the eating healthy and go back to way too much cola. Maybe giving the one guy the stink eye and telling him to back off made me fall into "grab at breasts" territory, so maybe I should just not have any attitude about it.

Oh, wait, I know what I'm doing wrong! I'm existing after dark. I'm in internet cafes, walking home in the late evening, I'm being all female and womanly and stuff in public, which obviously means that I want random guys asking me to suck their cocks. Yeah, that's it.

But I don't want to talk about it, because this whole thing implies that some guy, someplace, finds me "attractive" and thus if I complain about street harassment, I'm bragging. Or they'll roll their eyes and doubt me - because hey, I'm not some hot young thing, so why would any guy start shouting at me?

[Where does this concept that such things are complements come from, anyway? I feel ill and uncomfortable, and yeah, likely no one here is going to lay a hand on me, and I'm not going to stop going out after dark or wearing whatever the heck I want to wear or purposefully trying to put on weight so I can go back to being told I'm fat instead of fuckable, but really.]

So, today's discussion question: Street harassment. Stories? Thoughts? Ways of dealing? What do you think it all means? Why do you think it happens? Guys, feel free to chime in on any of these things - I know from watching it happen that guys get cat calls too - just usually for entirely different reasons and ways, but that's just been my experience. Let's talk about this stuff.

Cuz I am *not* wearing a bloody sweater - it wouldn't matter anyway. I'd still be Walking While Female, after all.


(36 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Easy
[info]odacamilla
2007-08-31 01:30 pm UTC (link)
Boy: "Why are you jealous? YOU are the one who needs fake businesscards with wrong phonenumber on it in pubs!"
Me: "you walk into a pub and chat leasurely to women and after ten minutes they start thinking about mothering your children and possibly wanting to make you tea when you are ill."
Boy: "Yes, but you walk into a club and immediately have men with Intentions rubbing against your thighs"
Me: "Yes, but those men would do that to anything with a pulse. It isn't a compliment, it means I am not too ugly to be excluded from the list. Men are EASY. being fawned over by one woman is far, far, far more of a compliment than having ten guys approach your breasts in a night. This is good for horny women who wants sex, cause it means we can shag above our social and economic status, but kinda makes you sick of it after a while."
Boy: "you just wanna be special"
Me: "yes damnit!"

The morale is, playing hard to get works.

(Reply to this)


[info]furikku
2007-08-31 02:05 pm UTC (link)
I've only encountered one case of street harrassment while I was walking- some guy called me "bitch" under his breath, and I was more puzzled and "eyeroll" than anything.

Though an incident that haunts me is the time I was riding around with some friends at night. I was in a hella good mood, so I was grinning like a loon, and I happened to make eye contact with some dudes in a car next to us at a stop light. One of them started yelling, "HEY! HEY BABY!" at me.

I was a dumb freshman kid who'd never experienced anything like that. The good mood went away and I was scared until we got back to our dorm.

(Reply to this)


[info]darth_cabal
2007-08-31 02:28 pm UTC (link)
Maybe giving the one guy the stink eye and telling him to back off made me fall into "grab at breasts" territory, so maybe I should just not have any attitude about it.

Either that or carry a shock-stick.

[Where does this concept that such things are complements come from, anyway?

I believe it to be a direct corrolary of the "men are animals" concept. The idea is that you're so irresistible that you FORCE men to descend to their animal natures and behave badly. This ignores, of course, the fact that men are perfectly capable of controlling themselves and therefore made a decision to treat you without dignity or respect. That's an insult and sometimes a threat, though it reflects more on the perpetrator than on the target. After all, if they really were so terribly attracted to you, they could have approached you in a more mature fashion.

So, today's discussion question: Street harassment. Stories? Thoughts? Ways of dealing? What do you think it all means? Why do you think it happens?

It could happen for any of a number of reasons. Some men really do intend it as a compliment. These are usually young men who are inexperienced at dating and feel vulnerable when asking a a girl out in a kind and earnest manner; drunk men who might not fully understand that when a stranger shouts at a woman and tries to touch her, she might interpret that as threatening; and old men who have old fashioned ideas about the sexes and still think comments like "if I were twenty years younger, you wouldn't be safe with me" are flattering rather than creepy. I think that part of the reason they continue to think it's a compliment is the way that women react. Much as I hate to admit it, some women really do take it as a compliment. Many other women become flustered and start blushing. For some reason that I have yet to discover, people almost universally interpret that as shy attraction rather than a sign that we are feeling self-conscious and uncertain how to respond in a way that finds some middle-ground between "easy victim" and "violent psycho".

Other times, the catcalls are actually an attempt to intimidate--to make the man feel dangerous, macho, and predatory. (Ironically, men mostly seem to only work up the courage for this while roaming in a pack.)

Although I feel much less harshly toward some socially awkward kid than towards a fully-grown asshole, I find that the most effective way of dealing with the situation remains essentially the same. In both situations, the guy's goal is to get your attention.

Whether he's chosen this manner because he hasn't progressed much past pigtail-pulling or because he's hoping to dominate you, your goals should be two-fold: not to reward the behavior and not to antagonize him (for your own safety as well as because he might consider any reaction to be desirable). If I'm walking somewhere and passing them, I either ignore them or give them a sort of half-my-attention, puzzled look, as if they're some oddly-behaved creature but harmless creature. This is sufficient discouragement in most cases because you neither appear scared nor overly interested--they'll probably end up either feeling silly or moving on to easier prey.

(to be continued)

(Reply to this) (Thread)
continuing into tl;dr territory
[info]darth_cabal
2007-08-31 02:29 pm UTC (link)
If I cannot escape the situation so easily (either because they're following me or because I'm in the middle of doing something and refuse to be run off), my tactics shift slightly: I engage them in conversation. Again, it's best not to behave antagonistically, because you don't want to give them any excuse to think that their own disrespectful behavior is appropriate in this situation. It's important to remain civil but remote--you don't want them to become defensive and aggressive, but you also don't want to reward them by being too friendly. You might pretend to be hard of hearing and ask them to repeat their comments, because making someone repeat themselves with careful enunciation kind of sucks all of the life out of a comment (just think about any time you've had to repeat or explain a joke). You might introduce yourself and ask their name(s), because most people would only think to act that way towards complete strangers. If it's kids and I think that they're obnoxious but mostly harmless, I might just be direct and ask them what they hope to gain by their comments (which I guarantee will leave them tongue-tied and awkward) and possibly even add some (sympathetic!) advice on better ways to get a girl's attention. Most of these kids are probably only doing it in the first place because they mistake "macho asshole" for "in-your-face adult". If you create an association in their minds between behaving like an asshole and being made to feel awkward and patronized, they're not likely to repeat the mistake.

Regardless of which type I'm dealing with, I try to position myself in a well-lit area near other people (and hopefully with my cellphone in my hand) before attempting to initiate conversation. Taekwondo training also comes in handy here--it's a lot easier to remain calm and nondefensive if you have a good knowledge of how to break holds and where to hit a someone to leave him curled in the fetal position.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]dinpik
2007-08-31 03:39 pm UTC (link)
Whether he's chosen this manner because he hasn't progressed much past pigtail-pulling or because he's hoping to dominate you, your goals should be two-fold: not to reward the behavior and not to antagonize him (for your own safety as well as because he might consider any reaction to be desirable).

Oh, I don't know. Tucker Carlson beat up a man because he made a pass at him, so it's okay now. *nods solemnly*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]darth_cabal
2007-08-31 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Tucker Carlson beat up a man because he made a pass at him, so it's okay now.

Oh yes, that's a proportional response!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]finaira
2007-08-31 02:37 pm UTC (link)
I've never had street harrassment of any kind. It's part of the reason why I just don't get why my mother gets so very very nervous about me being in my neighborhood after dark. Noone bothers me. I mean, shouldn't they?

I'm a short, small woman. Physically inept, right? Never been bothered. [info]ladylakira on the other hand has been solicited for sex in the middle of winter in full winter gear. Because nothing says, "I'm for sale, take me now" like snow boots and guessing at the gender of the bundle of down-filled synthetics.

(Reply to this)


[info]sabotabby
2007-08-31 04:10 pm UTC (link)
I usually get the asshole drive-by rather than the cliché construction guy and his friends. Which is doubly annoying because with the latter, I can frequently toss off a disarming retort. With the drive-by, there's no chance to respond. It's also more threatening.

My worst street harassment story was actually not on a street; it was on a subway, and I was the only woman in a car with three guys. Two were masturbating and one was signaling with his finger for me to come over. Unbelievable. I was wearing some interesting eye jewellery, but other than that, I was basically wearing an oversized t-shirt and leggings. I was totally terrified (I was a teenager at the time) and I couldn't get off that car fast enough. When I did, one of the guys started following me.

Oddly enough, I think I get less harassment now than I did when I was heavier and dressed less femme. I have no idea why this is.

(Reply to this)


[info]gamerchick
2007-08-31 04:48 pm UTC (link)
The only street harassment story I can think of right now is this time that I was biking back to my house and I rode fairly quickly past a couple of guys who were standing next to their car and talking. As I passed, one of them turned his head and said loudly, "Damn, bitch be cruisin'!" That one actually made me laugh because it was just such a bizarre thing to say.

The worst street harassment ever was in Mexico. I think that's all I have to say about that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]sanityimpaired
2007-09-01 09:10 pm UTC (link)
I've heard that from a friend of mine living in Mexico city. She routinely has to slap people to keep them from groping her because they will do so unless physically stopped.

I wonder if I can ship her a taser for her birthday.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]paigedayspring
2007-08-31 06:35 pm UTC (link)
Well, there was the time I was propositioned with a hundred dollars.

I was standing outside my sons' daycare, carrying an overlarge purse and blanket at a bus stop- but I was wearing smallish yellow shorts and a green tank top. Maybe the clothing overruled the handfuls of possessions?

Also there was the time a guy used the word 'sexy' in every text he sent me. I felt so dirty after just three I texted him to never bother me again.

(Reply to this)


[info]nickys
2007-08-31 08:06 pm UTC (link)
> so maybe I should just not have any attitude about it.

Finding it amusing seems to work as a tactic to stop them.


Actually, I got pestered a lot less when in a miniskirt and fishnets travelling home late at night than I did when I'd carefully changed into baggy clothing after a club.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:55 pm UTC (link)
I might try that.

Of course, I may try walking tall like I own the place, too. I think attitude and how one carries oneself affects such things.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]urbankat
2007-08-31 08:19 pm UTC (link)
I got badly harassed when living in Asia (even though I am a very conservative dresser) and had to, unfortunately, put down to the fact that women that look like me (Eastern European) are often prostitutes there. It was so bad that for example I would be propositioned while in a tracksuit (coming from the gym) standing at a bus stop. My 'mistake' was that I smoked, but I wasn't going to change that part of my behaviour for others. It is a sign of promiscuity. While the harassment insulting it was never aggressive so a withering look or cutting remark in the appropriate language seemed to do the trick.

Back home (Scotland) and the rest of Europe I never had any major problems except for Italy, but again a withering look worked fine. But I wouldn't engage southern Italian men with any remark because they were more aggressive, I learnt that the hard way which involved getting the police when a particularly stubborn man would not take no for an answer and followed myself and my friend home in his car. To this day I still don't understand the mentality. Did the bloke seriously think that we would get into his car and have wild rampant sex with him there and then? Someone had clearly been watching too much porn.

Now in Canada I get the most bizarre hassle and it bothers me more than the others. The men that think an 8 month pregnant woman would like to have sex with them just because she is walking down the street. These pervs get a 'fuck off' because I am just sick of it now. I don't care if it is meant to be compliment, I automatically take it as a threat. I am more defensive in my 'current state' because it would be harder to physically defend myself if I had to cos my centre of gravity is all messed up etc. I don't like it but it's true.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:54 pm UTC (link)
I don't blame you at all. I'm getting more aggressive in my responses and I'm not carrying around the extra weight and all that extra body heat in the summer.

I have *no idea* what goes through these men's minds. It seems to be some sort of learned behaviour, a type of "look at me, I'm a big man" thing, which makes me really wonder what men are like when women aren't around, and if that's something I want to know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]alya1989262
2007-08-31 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Okay, so, um, street harrassment in Egypt? Is routine. Cat calls, insults, demands for sex, following me home, I've seen/heard it all. Everyday. Going to work is a daily challenge that consists of finding the fastest and least harassment-ridden way to get there.

I instinctively switch sidewalks to pass by as few men as possible. When I pass by a man, especially if he's between 20 and 50 years old (but yes, younger boys and older men harass me too), I always try to put something between us, a tree, a lamppost, whatever. Harassment is more frequent and angressive at night, but it's still very present during the day.

Every woman is a target, though I, being young, slim, and not a conservative dresser (I show my hair, wear knee-length skirts and tight jeans, bear my arms, sometimes even my shoulders...), more than others. Because I'm not veiled, I also look Christian, and some men think that makes it "okay" to tell me they want to bed me. *frothes in rage*

I consistently ignore them. Always. And I listen to my walkman in the street, so I don't even have to hear them. And these days, apart from mornings, when I go to work on my own, I'm mostly walking with my guy friends and/or my boyfriend, so that's a good protection.

Oh, and there's this .

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:53 pm UTC (link)
The whole comment about how the women were totally inciting the men to violence just leaves me shaking - men are not children, for crying out loud, and women are not uncovered bits of meat, ready to by snatched up by monsters.

Walking While Female.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Comments & more... (Musings in the vague area of the subject)
[info]intemporaliter
2007-09-01 01:01 am UTC (link)
Such things happen. Differently in different areas and around different age groups. Situation and my mood at the time have a lot of effect on my reaction. Being spoken/shouted from a distance, I would rather cope with sexual comments than pure insults, because I personally find them easier to ignore / interpret positively. Apparent intent is also important to me. Someone shouts 'C'mere Sexy' I can ignore it as nonsense or choose to think 'I am indeed looking damn fine today'. Someone shouts 'fat ugly hag' at me, I have less options. (This is on the understanding that I can't take option 3 and have them be civil & courteous...)

I tend to engage in conversation (without stopping walking) if someone is being particularly persistent, because, whilst we're moving (towards somewhere with lots of people & good lighting) and talking, nothing else is likely to happen. I know this might be seen as encouragement, but I see it as a form of protection. It prevents them concentrating on doing much else if they're already doing two things, and gives me a little control because I can steer the conversation.
Yes, it's scary. That level has only happened to me a few times (I ignore most nonsense) but leaves me shaken afterwards. Guy in Leith who was very interested in buying me a drink (but preferably meeting me at a hotel) terrified me, despite offering no physical threat. It's only in the last month or so that I've felt safe that end of town. Huddersfield was worse. I only had trouble there from asian guys, but some of the first or second generation immigrants really did seem to think that ALL white women were sluts/whores and could be treated as such. (Or possibly all women, the married men were scarily possessive over their wives.) I found (still find, I guess) it very odd that they guarded their wives so jealously, yet would happily chat to other men about 'conquests', and not see attemps at seduction by men as wrong. The whole Woman-is-slut / Man-is-stud problem, but worse. Yes, I'm tarring an entire culture with the same brush, which is unfair, but I had so many problems that it really did feel like that.

However, there were a couple of old men who spent much of each day on a bench on a street corner I had to walk past. They would say hello, call me pretty, and wish me a good day. They'd check that I was okay if they didn't see me for a few days. Often they'd make bawdier comments, but they never tried to approach me physically, and always used a gentle tone of voice. Not scary. Sometimes the comments actually cheered me up. I think the difference is probably something to do with respect and level of implied physical violence. They seemed to see me as a person, rather than just object, and would have had trouble physically overpowering me.
I've been having a number of conversations with Fraggle lately about how insulated and egalitarian Britain is compared to most of the world. Yet I still feel that a man between ~20-40 is a threat merely because they happen to be on the same street as me at night. I have never been attacked, yet I'm still scared.
I'm aware I'm not being coherent & rambling, but I'm trying to formulate my thoughts & failing.

It's unfair to most men that I'm scared of them purely because they're men.
It's not going to change anytime soon.
In school, I was only beaten up by other girls - yet women don't scare me.
Maybe because children no longer scare me.
The only adults who've hurt me excessively/without reason have been male.
The only unwanted/forced sexual contacts - male.
I do believe that (nearly) all men can control themselves.

Why do enough choose not to that these problems exist?

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Comments & more... (Musings in the vague area of the subject)
[info]intemporaliter
2007-09-01 01:01 am UTC (link)
On a slightly different tack, these same groups (and yes, I agree, always groups if they're commenting from a distance) of men making lewd comments at women are also often making just downright nasty comments at any lone man who happens past. It's anyone they may me able to intimidate. Anyone they can hurt without suffering a backlash. Anything to make them feel big.
Some (though far fewer) groups of females act the same way.
I don't understand it.
I didn't understand it when I was 11 and it was children on the school bus, I don't now, I probably never will.
I can fabricate all sorts of pseudo-psychological reasoning involving low self esteem and group dynamics, but, basically, I just cannot comprehend a mentality where causing someone purposeful harm without provocation is a good thing. I've been told that I can be a touch naive at times...

Advice?
'Nil illegitimi carborundum est.' The more confident you look, the less likely anything really bad will happen has worked so far for me. Groups can usually be safely ignored as they're likely to have limited territory. Carefully chatty workes on a man on his own. The two women I know who have had to deal with unknown men trying to rape them both went for the 'knee in the groin' approach. It worked.

Ummm... Yes... I'm going to sleep now, as it's 2am...

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: Comments & more... (Musings in the vague area of the subject)
[info]odacamilla
2007-09-01 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I absolutely agree, it is so very a manner of the mode of approach and how I know them.

I still have not decided if I should develop a strong lack of fear of strange men, or a strong sense of which places to avoid at night. I hate having to moderate my behaviour based on someone elses possible criminal intent.

The unplesasant catcalls make me more likely to hide away and stay inside, in the kitchen, where I belong. That is my main issue I think. The few assholes make every male seem like a potential threat.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Comments & more... (Musings in the vague area of the subject)
[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:51 pm UTC (link)
"The few assholes make every male seem like a potential threat."

I've read in the past so many reports about women who just don't go out, or don't go out alone, and it makes me *sad*. So much is missed when you're afraid, but what can I tell them? That statistically they're more likely to be harmed by an intimate partner? Yeah, that'll help.

The thing for me is, I'm occasionally afraid to walk out late at night, not because I'm afraid of what will happen to me, but because I'm afraid of how people will react if something does. The "you shouldn't have been going out at that time of night anyway" thing leaves me so cold.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]gunderpants
2007-09-01 07:34 am UTC (link)
My best friend used to live right between the two most busy streets for prostitution here, so you'd get cruised every time: even if you were hung-over, with vomit dribbling down your chin, and you were in daggy jeans and a jumper. You even get guys leaning out the window to yell out "SO ARE YOU WORKING OR NOT >:("

I usually catcall back, if only because my arsenal of insults is usually better than their arsenal of come-on lines. Telling someone you'd rather fuck a dead hobo than them is a great way to destroy their self-esteem to the point that they will never think about having sex again.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:49 pm UTC (link)
The first time I walked home after midnight through the "bad" neighbourhood of Edmonton I thought I was going to scream. I'd never had that experience before, and it was so disgusting. It's not exactly nice to know it's universal.

You're definitely better at the insults than I am. I'm getting better at pretending I find such men disgusting rather than frightening.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]sanityimpaired
2007-09-01 09:17 pm UTC (link)
First off: "I'm not some hot young thing."

BS. You are in fact attractive.

Now that's out of the way, I'm boggled by the fact that it's socially unacceptable to complain about unwelcome attention. It's like being told that guy who stalks you and peers through your window when you shower just wants to be your friend, and that you should be grateful for his interest.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:47 pm UTC (link)
I must not have expressed myself very well.

I am attractive. I kick ass and take names, too. But I'm not some hot young thing anymore, in that I am not young, and there is a definite idea about what "hot young thing" means... and it looks a shade more like Linette than I do. *grin*

As a note, that example you give there, of being told the guy who peers through your window when you shower just wanting to be your friend?

Someone on my flist had just that experience. [Cannot currently find link, but I've linked to the story before.]

Women are regularly told that it's *flattering* to be getting such unwelcome attention. That it's men telling them that they're attractive, and men, of course, can't be counted on to keep it under control. [Getting back into my "Women are people and men are not monsters, or children" thing.] You can see it reflected in other ways, too - when a woman acts afraid of a man in the street or something (as she's been taught to do by popular media - strange men are potential rapists, after all -- pls note sarcasm), you'll get the response of "Don't flatter yourself".

Yeah, because rape is *flattery*.

I may not be expressing myself very well today.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]sanityimpaired
2007-09-05 04:28 am UTC (link)
*Sigh* Here comes the devil's advocate. It can be beneficial to view unwelcome attention as flattery, so long as said attention remains relatively harmless. It's a technique to boost self-esteem. That is, however, the choice of the individual. Forcing unwelcome attention in the first place is still blatantly inconsiderate and inappropriate.

I just happen to be male. I have also been known to be driven utterly mad with lust while in the midst of a dry spell. While I unquestionably made an ass of myself, I didn't do anything inappropriate, I didn't harass anybody, and I certainly didn't commit rape. I guess I'm too conservative to be properly flattering. *Rolls eyes*

As far as "strange men are dangerous" goes, everyone has the capacity to be dangerous, regardless of gender, situation, and how well you know them. The odds change, but everyone is capable of causing you harm.

*Sigh* Ever feel like you and your nearest and dearest somehow evolved into a new species, and that the majority of people are troglodytes a step below you on the evolutionary scale?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-05 04:54 am UTC (link)
"Here comes the devil's advocate."

Is this something that you're saying because you believe it, or something you're saying to make an argument?

[I'll have to respond to the rest when I'm not at work - I want to think about it carefully. *smile*]

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]sanityimpaired
2007-09-05 05:42 am UTC (link)
Because I believe it. Allowing someone to change your mood gives them power over you. Choosing instead to twist their ignorance to your own benefit is infinitely preferable.

However, there are some situations in which that's simply not helpful. When we're dealing with things such as rape and physical assault, the best solution involves a taser.

Wait, didn't I say that already this post?

Bzort!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]padredon
2007-09-05 12:16 pm UTC (link)
Taking unwanted attention as a compliment means accepting inappropriate behaviour instead of objecting to it. The responsibility is again passed to the women rather than the men who are acting so inappropriately. The people in the wrong are the guys who are harassing women. Its not the job of the women being harassed to change. Men are perfectly capable of controlling themselves. If men are being harassing then they need to stop, its responsibility. If women do change, it means basing self esteem off the random comments of males on the street. Self esteem again becomes based on appearance rather than any other quality. In accepting harassment, the qualities which women are judged on, and to no small degree view themselves, continues to be different than the qualities men are judged on. Changing how harassment is perceived and thereby accepting it is not the answer. The answer is for this who are harassing women to stop. Harassment is not acceptable and is one more message that society places the value of a woman’s appearance first and foremost. Harassment is not inevitable, its a choice and it needs to be made clear to the men who are doing it, that it is not acceptable.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]sanityimpaired
2007-09-05 03:28 pm UTC (link)
"That is, however, the choice of the individual. Forcing unwelcome attention in the first place is still blatantly inconsiderate and inappropriate."

Surely you can see that equating what I've said above to women being responsible for being harassed is a straw man arguement.

To remove gender from the equation, I used to live in a very bad part of town, and I was infrequently harassed because of it. I found that choosing to be amused by the situation was far more healthy for me than confronting the people involved. The people harassing me would not change regardless, and it was not severe enough to warrant police involvement or self-defense.

I see this as a similar situation. It can be beneficial for the individual to choose how they interpret things. It also benefits them to pick their battles; disregard the people who you likely will not influence regardless, and target those who will listen.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-06 05:59 am UTC (link)
Why don't I have a current email address for you? I fail at life. :(

I meant to respond to you more thoroughly last night but didn't get the chance. Will make a stab at it tonight, although the answer in my head may have gone beyond LJ's comment limit - I'll try and edit it down. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]sanityimpaired
2007-09-06 06:05 pm UTC (link)
I did change my email to something more permanent a few months back when I moved. If you email Crash or Mouse, they should be able to get you my updated one. If they don't have it (being my roommates and all) I can get it to them. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]elanor_x
2007-09-03 08:29 am UTC (link)
I have recently read about this topic here:
http://joltblog.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/benefits-of-getting-older/
and this post was discussed on Hugo's blog - http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/08/31/men-women-ageing-and-the-slide-into-invisibility-after-35/
and here - http://www.mythago.com/blog/2007/08/25/wilfully-invisible/
They talk about not being verbally harassed after a certain age, but may be you will find the discussion interesting nevertheless.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]troubleinchina
2007-09-04 01:38 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the links, Elanor. I've been really really really behind on my Feminist Reading lately, so I have no idea what's going on.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Keep safe
(Anonymous)
2007-10-26 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Be aware, be confident, put on the mask. Look each person directly in the eye with a neutral face for a second. Then look away, giving the the I have "noted" you look.

If you are in a bad situation, the knee is the most expected. Feel free to raise it but step forward rather.

Then from the shoulder slap them not on the cheek, on the neck, just below the ear.
Do it now to yourself, not too hard, you should feel a shock run down your body.

This knocks out the sense of balance, the nerves and can impair hearing and dislocate the jaw, it can also cause muscles in the neck to swell constricting blood to the brain helping render them unconcious.

Don't hesitate!

Practise at home, like when you throw a ball and your fingers give a last flick of the hand.
Step forward and twist your hip, it is your hip that puts your weight behind the blow. You arm is the should flick out at the same time or ever so slightly after the start of that movement.

Raise your hand to near your shoulder and then forward and round. Don't ready your hand, or they will expect it to move.
Keep relaxed... don't tense up, this means your counter muscles are working against you, so use only the muscles needed.

When you are wearing a windbreaker or something like that and can make it snap then you are probably fast enough.
Sacrifice no speed for power or weight it does not require a lot.

If you have to and it gets this bad, grab the groin, lift, twist and yank down hard! This will rupture the artery that feeds that organ and he has three minutes to seek medical care.

Don't hesitate or think about it, consider how you are protecting all the other victims there are to follow.

I hope this helps, I think the right people will read it. Be safe, aware and confident, square your shoulder, stride and look around, don't wear head phones, don't use your cell phone, don't smoke, don't distract yourself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Clothing
(Anonymous)
2007-10-26 05:40 pm UTC (link)
Don't wear high heels if you can avoid it, I know you think it looks good, but they are bad for posture and your feet and the worst things to run or fight in.

Don't wear tight knee hugging dresses either, I know it looks chic but it will only give you trouble.

Loose skirts that you can raise your legs in or run with, low heeled shoes, I wear work shoes that look good with the leather on top, very conventional but have running soles.

I am deeply sadened by this thread, I hope you all manage better in future, I can only feel that we have over bred, it is the more dense areas the are the least social and most volatile.

Best of luck

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(36 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…