Anna ([info]troubleinchina) wrote,
@ 2007-08-29 22:28:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Current location:not my bed
Current mood: disappointed
Entry tags:fandom & feminism, no - i really *do* care that much, totally not a fan

Because Women Feel Things and Men Just Do Them - Stereotypes in Fantasy Novels
A friend of mine lent me a book a while back and I hate it. Not in that "I enjoy loathing this book" sort of way, but in the "I wish someone would take the author out back and give him a beating stern talking to about writing in cliches and how when you have a whole world to set up maybe you could break gender stereotypes" sort of way. And what really really really annoyed me about this book was, simply enough, that it could have been so much better if he had put as much thought into his magic system as he did into the way people swore.

Let me show you what I didn't like about it:
Like a lot of fantasy novels set in a magical age, this novel has its magic system based around the four elements: earth, air, fire, water. Earth elements give the people who control them great physical strength and control over the earth, air allows one to fly and control the wind, fire allows one to make rooms and tempers very hot, and water allows one to heal, read emotions, and similar such things.

Ask me how these seemed to "coincidently" break down by gender. Go on, ask.

That's right! The only people with any strong earth or fire magic in them were men, and the only people with any strong air or water magic in them were women. What an amazing coincidence! I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked to see such a difference from the usual fantasy story.

Oh wait.

In fairness to the author, I should point out that there's at least one important male character who has water magic. I should also point out that he's effeminate, goes against the male character trying to save everyone and has him thrown in jail, and is considered weak and someone to work around by everyone else.

One of the things I keep bringing up in discussions about these things is that none of this happens in a vacuum. This book, with its gender roles set up this way, isn't precisely unique in the realms of fantasy. The female character in video games who is a healing priestess-type character continually makes "top cliches in fantasy video games"; the white-robed mystic woman who has a closer link to The Gods and yet can't do anything on her own shows up all over the place; the woman who is overwhelmed by her own empathy and thus can do nothing was clichéd well before Deanna Troi was telling us, "I sense great sorrow, Captain".

In a world of the author's own creation, why is it so rare for the Aunt to search the woods for her lost nephew, wielding her earth magic against her enemies, as opposed to being kidnapped and threatened with rape and enslavement? Why does it seem, so often, to be the Uncle?

To be frank, it's been a while since I picked up a fantasy novel or played a fantasy video game. I just don't want to anymore. It gets frustrating remembering playing so many of them and giving the main (male) character a female name and weaving in my own back story about a woman who wants to be an adventurer but has to hide her gender in order to do it properly - bonus storyline points when there's a romance and I get to have hidden lesbians who doubt their sexuality. I'm tired of story lines set in a Galaxy Far Far Away or a Land Before Time or A World Shaped by Magic where women are always waiting and men are always doing. I'm tired of rape threats or actualities against female characters and so rarely against male characters outside of homosexuals (Hi, Mercedes Lackey! Welcome to my blog!). I'm tired of women who have to dress like men in order to prove themselves in a fantasy world.

Writers have the whole world in their hands - let's see more female characters who can walk it with their heads held high and their braids blowing in the wind, shall we?

[Books and Movies I'm Aware Break This Cliche and thus recommend: The Tarma & Kethry novels by Mercedes Lackey, although they do have rape as a major plot point, twice. I haven't read a lot of MZB, but her "Firebrand" novel has a pro-active Cassandra. It has a tendency to go with "but all men are evil" a lot, which annoys me, so I'm not sure I'd recommend it because of that. The "Man of His Word" series by Dave Duncan, which while having a Princess who is Beautiful and Everyone Wants, also has her being very pro-active, has an even more pro-active aunt, and breaks so many cliches of the fantasy genre that I think every one in the whole world should read it. And buy it new, because Dave Duncan is totally my hero and deserves more sales. Also, Cordelia's Honour by Lois McMaster Bujold also has a very pro-active set of women, but it's the only book by her I've read so I can't speak for the rest of her work.]

[Previously: Heroes, Heroines, and Fandom]




(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]bubosquared
2007-08-29 02:37 pm UTC (link)
I may have more thinky thoguhts later, but for now, two recommendations:

Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksennarion (The main character is a warrior woman, and it's really good.)

Tad Williams's To Green Angel Tower (More "traditional" roles for women, but he's writing in a pseudo-medieval world, in which that makes sense and lets the women kick ass without being all "ZOMG I dun wanna wear dresses and be GIRLY!" which comes with its own set of problems.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-29 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Elizabeth Moon sounded familiar to me, so I googled her, and I've totally read some of her stuff that's shown up in Anthologies.

Since the titles are not immediately making me wince, I must assume I liked them.

The only thing by Tad Williams I've read is Tailchaser's Song, which I had a particular dislike of for reasons that I no longer recall, but I'll hunt up his stuff and see what comes out.

Thank you!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]bubosquared
2007-08-29 02:50 pm UTC (link)
She has some really good SF books as well. DoP is long, though. (I have it in a one-volume edition, and that sucker is huge.)

TGAT has an ending that made me go "Augh!" because of the suddwen clicheness when the rest of the books had been SO GOOD, but if you ignore that bit if the ending, it's quite good. (There is one point where the Princess is travelling as a boy, for example, andwhen that's found out, there's none of the SHOCK! ONOES! reaction, which is refreshing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

actually I found the Williams to be *verra* annoying
[info]bellatrys
2007-08-29 03:34 pm UTC (link)
1. The primary princess has to disguise her gender and pretend to be a boy, is Spunky but then gets captured, is "seduced" by one of the villains and considers herself "impure" and unworthy of the (terminally-whiny) hero's pure love after that and turns into a little doormat to him, abdicating her claim to the throne out of her feelings of unworthiness.

2. The other princess, the alt-Hielander spends all her time mooning after this guy who doesn't love her, hating herself because she's too "masculine" and when she finally "uses the Force, Luke!" to lead her people to safety - and does, even though her beliefs about the origins of her dream-visions are incorrect - she doesn't go on from this to find self-confidence and a new reason to live, she turns into an Ophelia and wastes away, still pining for her unrequited love.

4. The little handmaid of the first princess who helps her escape gets injured during the escape, goes into a coma, and is One With Mystical Everything, and dies.

3. There's the troll princess, who is...well, spunky warrior type, but doesn't have that much of a role except being motivator for the troll hero.

5. Likewise the elf princesses and queens, who are the most interesting female charas who don't end up depowered,

6. Except for the old chatelaine, who actually has some real character, but not much of a role except as an ex machina.

I don't think troubleinchina would be less inclined to fling the book at the author's head than I was.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]padredon
2007-08-29 02:47 pm UTC (link)
Mercedes Lackey's works are about the best I can think of and still leave a lot of room to improve. I found Duncan's "Man of his Word" to be a real mix of progressive and conventional. Women certainly displayed their own agency but at the same time they fit into roles traditionaly seen as women's roles. I really can't think of any other Sci-fi/ Fantasy that I've read or seen that does much to break the conventional patterns. Even the new Battle Star Galactica portrays Starbuck as very dependent on the men around her.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ladylakira
2007-08-29 02:52 pm UTC (link)
Wouldn't it be kind of bizarre not to have woman in conventional roles? I mean, it would be something to talk about if only the women ever wandered out of the conventional roles (say "mystic healer") and you never saw a man walk out of their convential roles ("warrior of mighty thews"), but I think it would be equally bizarre if what you saw was just warrior women, not a single woman as "mystic healer" and the men are relatively evenly distributed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]padredon
2007-08-29 03:13 pm UTC (link)
The problem, I think, is the complete lack of women in non-conventional roles. The few times that a female character breaks convention stand out as odd and in many cases get criticized like Elizabeth in the Pirates movies. As Anna pointed out in her discussion of Elizabeth the problem is in the scarcity of strong, proactive women. If there were more women in non-conventional roles then the healer or mystic who's a woman wouldn't be such an issue. Its not that women as healers or men as warriors are bad its the lack of balance that's a problem.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]ladylakira
2007-08-29 05:11 pm UTC (link)
I was responding in specific to "Women certainly displayed their own agency but at the same time they fit into roles traditionaly seen as women's roles." (Emphasis mine, obviously.) It felt somewhat as though women in traditional roles was still wrong somehow, but I think I get where you're coming from now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ladylakira
2007-08-29 02:49 pm UTC (link)
I'd be interested in your take of the Kusiel's Legacy series by Jacqueline Carey (Kushiel's Dart, Kushiel's Chosen, Kushiel's Legacy). The world is a pseudo-fantasy-historical (you'll understand what I mean by this when you see it) where the main character is a female whore who has been divinely chosen to find pleasure in pain (we're talking unnaturally potent masochism, here, not just the usual "I like BDSM" variety). And despite the fact that she may be one of the most yielding characters I've ever seen, she is also strikes me as one of the strongest female characters I've ever seen. I'm curious to see if you would agree.

My girl also mentions S.M. Sterling and Shirley Meier who wrote Saber and Shadow, The Cage, and Shadow's Son, which features strong bisexual female characters. She says that the books address issues of female characters in male roles and they're pretty kick-ass. From what I recall of the books, it seems that the issues are addressed in a pretty stereotypical way when they are addressed in fantasy novels - woman captured, sold to slavery, rape, escape, attain PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER (or just a hot lesbian warrior babe and sorcery) and beats the bad guy in the end.

I find that most books that buck the trend of "woman heal, man fight" of fantasy novels tend to slap the woman into a male role with some lip service to "the society is equal!" or "she's looked at funny cuz she's a woman!" without much elaboration. Don't suppose you have any thoughts on that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-29 03:01 pm UTC (link)
I find that most books that buck the trend of "woman heal, man fight" of fantasy novels tend to slap the woman into a male role with some lip service to "the society is equal!" or "she's looked at funny cuz she's a woman!" without much elaboration. Don't suppose you have any thoughts on that?

I have lots of thoughts on that, and I will ponder putting them into something relatively intelligent sounding and get back to you soon-ish.

You may enjoy [info]limyaael's Fantasy Rants, where she addresses quite a few topics that are in a similar vein. I'm just about to pack up and head for home, or I'd hunt down the one where she talks about that. But hey, they'll all lots of fun.

For reasons that completely confuddle me, I seem to be the only person I know who just didn't like the Kushiel's series. I wanted to, because so many people I know liked it, but I just didn't. I couldn't explain why if you paid me to. I may make another stab at reading them at some point, but for now, I'd just have to shrug.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]finaira
2007-08-29 02:59 pm UTC (link)
For video games with a (admittedly small) break from normal cliches, check out FF9. The plot was kinda confusing but you have two interesting female characters.

First, the male protagonist constant needs the women to poke and prod him when the story gets difficult and the female protagonist actively tries to force you (the guy) to kidnap her in the beginning. Garnet isn't weak. She is, however, still the healer/summoner (despite the fact that that is OMG powerful) of the group while the main is still the fighty guy. The strong knight character, however, is a complete comedy b/c he's constantly trying to get Garnet to go home and be a pretty little princess while she's off having adventures and trying to save the world.

Also, FF12 also tries to break the stereotypes a little. The main female, Ashe, faked her own death, is trying to start a revolution and is galavanting around with sky pirates while starting fights with...well...pretty much all the people who become your enemies in the game. The main* character Vaan, is well, quite young. Undecided. Wants to do cool things but...really...can't.

*I have issues with FF12 and who is the actual main character. I mean sure, Vaan is the person the PC is typically playing but the plot doesn't revolve around him. It mostly revolves around Ashe.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]finaira
2007-08-29 03:09 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes! Books!

George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series thing....(it's four books and counting) has some wonderful female roles. The setting is pretty much historical fantasy so the strong women are often strong in ways that the society isn't supposed to like. There are equal mixes of strong female/strong male/weak female/weak male in it. They're pretty much coated with both stereotypes and the breaking thereof. You have warrior women who are frowned upon and the warrior women who has forced themselves to be accepted and respected for what they are. You have ambicious women, protective women, women who just refuse to sit around and do nothing, women who sit on war coucils. So yeah. Just...don't get attached to anyone in the series.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]finaira
2007-08-30 12:50 pm UTC (link)
Here's another set of books you may be interested in. For single female protagonists who are anything but weak, look at Terry Pratchett's Susan Death stuff. It's in the Discworld series.

Pratchett's very good at taking stereotypes and showing you how obviously silly they are. Thus quite a number of times you end up with capable women going around fixing the problem that stupid men normally caused in the first place.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]danelover18
2007-08-29 03:17 pm UTC (link)
The irony is, my main elements that I identify with are Earth and Fire and one of my best guy friends is a water/ air combo.

Heh.

(Reply to this)


[info]gamerchick
2007-08-29 04:35 pm UTC (link)
I second the recommendation for Martin (very, very few cliche characters of any sort to be found there!) and add The Book of Ash series by Mary Gentle. The lead character is the cynical, hard-bitten, hard-drinking, seen-too-much leader of a company of ragtag mercenaries in an alternate history version of Europe...who also just happens to be a woman. Ash is one of my favorite female characters of all time and one of the least stereotyped that I can think of, so I definitely think you'd find something to like there.

Spinning things off in a totally different direction, one of the many reasons that I absolutely loved the hell out of the last Mage: The Ascension game I was in was how the (male) GM, whether knowingly or unknowingly, completely turned the whole "men do and women just be" thing on its head. Two of the lead characters were:

- The cabal leader, a devil-may-care hedonist with a tormented and literally haunting past, who was the cabal's best and strongest fighter and generally preferred violent and explosive solutions to problems, who acted like a jerk to almost everyone in order to keep from getting too close to people and being hurt by them, and who was extremely surprised to fall in love with a cabalmate and eventually be redeemed by that.
- The cabal leader's love interest, who deliberately formed relationships with everyone else in the cabal, who disliked fighting and would rather talk things out or avoid conflict altogether, who was rather naive about relationships despite being a very sexual being, and who was the focal point of a love triangle between the cabal leader and a former (and possibly evil) mentor. This person was eventually revealed to be an uberpowerful magical artifact, capable of channeling magical energy and enabling people from different paradigms to work together and be stronger that way, which forced the rest of the cabal to protect this person from unscrupulous parties who would use the power to their own purposes.

What genders would you assign to these characters in a typical narrative. If you said "cabal leader is male, love interest is female", you got it backwards. (c: Maggie, the cabal leader and my character, is pictured in the icon, and her love interest was a guy named Skipper. I still don't know whether the reversal of the traditionally expected gender roles was deliberate on the ST's part. If it wasn't, that almost makes it more awesome, because it means that he was completely blind to the way things are expected to be in these cases.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2007-08-29 04:39 pm UTC (link)
I would recommend hunting down more Bujold stuff.

James

(Reply to this)


[info]tylergrrls
2007-08-29 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Give Melanie Rawn's Exiles Series a go.

It doesn't say it in the description, but it is actually a matriarchal society where women are the traditional leaders in business and politics, and men are traditionally the caregivers. The main female characters are often involved in the fight for equal rights for men, but sometimes the subtle hypocrisy of people in power not realizing how prejudiced they can be is highlighted.

I found it an interesting challenge to my preconceived notions, as well as an enjoyable fantasy book.

Warning: She's written 2 of them and no one knows if the third will ever show up. But they stand all right on their own at this point anyway.

-Bree

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ladylakira
2007-08-29 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Haven't read the series, but I'm wondering if it's a complete flip of gender roles or if the gender roles have things that don't quite fit into ours....

Okay, that made no sense. Let me try this again: Is the female gender role in the series essential our traditionally male gender role? Or does it have aspects that make it nominally recognizable as our male gender role but with aspects that make it somehow alien? So, say, females are traditionally leaders in politics and business but also... uh... are particularly adept at shelling peas (assuming shelling peas has some sort of societal significance). I ask largely because I often find gender role switches annoying due to a complete lack of even an attempt at reasoning why this happens. Not that this always happens - the Drow community is dominated by women because their evil blood-thirsty goddess said so. That's bound to influence a culture.... :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]tylergrrls
2007-08-29 06:46 pm UTC (link)
The reason it happened is mentioned obliquely from time to time. There was a huge mage war that pretty much destroyed everything and caused crazy terrible birth defects. What was left of the culture banded together and formed a society structure based on your ability to have healthy children. Since women were the only people who could continue the society, they pretty much became the ones who made all the decisions.

The society is broken down further into tiers based on how many generations your family could go without having babies made crazy from the magic, so people are being discriminated against based on two things, really: the sort of children people were having 10 generations ago and whether or not they're female.

Though the women are still having the babies, they are primarily the breadwinners, heads of house and therefore retain parental rights without parental responsibilities. Men are expected to oversee the children and keep the house because, well, the women have to work.

The plot of the first book is a sort of rebellion to overthrow the current order of things, but it becomes interesting in the second book when some of the male protagonists start to challenge whether or not this New World Order is really the equal paradise the female protagonists promised.

-Bree

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]furikku
2007-08-29 05:59 pm UTC (link)
One of my favorite games is the RPG Tales of Destiny, which has an ARSELOAD of strong women in it. Even the water-element healer type is a cunning businesswoman whose dedication to her goals occasionally prompts her to do things that are, er, not terribly empathetic. (She's also teamed up with a female badass berserker.)

Most of the Tales series games I've played have actually been spectacular at subverting gender roles and cliches, or at least making them less annoying.

(Reply to this)


[info]technocracygirl
2007-08-29 10:33 pm UTC (link)
I was going to think that this was Furies of Calderon, except that I don't think there are any water-based men in there. If not, well, you might want to try it. Yes, it's the Uncle who tracks the Nephew instead of the Aunt, but the Aunt is playing politics well, aids and hindered by a woman who is truly powerful and a power with and without her husband. There's a Drusilla-esque character who shows how deadly those water powers can be, and a woman without magic powers who (while falling into other gendered stereotypes) is a Kick-Arse Warrior Woman.

Tarma and Kethry are the only Mercedes Lackey I can read now.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]the-willow.insanejournal.com
2007-08-31 08:56 pm UTC (link)
I half thought she was talking about Butcher's Calderon Series.

And I found myself trying to find 'Earth' or 'Fire' women. And all the women I found were water. But they were so kickass that I didn't notice while reading the books that there was any possible gender break down.

Water powers seem to me to be the type of powers most everyone wishes they had for the immortal seeming youth, the convenience of healing, the communication aspect as well as being able to read the emotions of enemies and allies alike.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]darth_cabal
2007-08-29 11:59 pm UTC (link)
Now I kind of want to write a fantasy novel with completely ambiguous names. After I've written the entire thing, I'll flip a coin to decide what sex each character is.

I recommend Melanie Rawn's "Exiles" series. It is matriarchal. Better than that, the men and women do not actually act much different in terms of the emotional/logical type of stereotypes, but their actions are sometimes interpretted differently by some of the more obnoxious/prejudiced characters. It's an interesting reversal. I would only caution you that only two of the three books are out, and the third is taking forever.

(Reply to this)


[info]looniewolf
2007-08-30 03:51 am UTC (link)
Okay. I've a heroine for you. Well, sort of. Protagonist? =^-^=

Lina Inverse. This spunky redhead not only specializes in black (destructive) magic, she's also mastered the highest level black magic (Dragon Slave) and uses it on the drop of a pin. I mean it. Every fourth episode or so it's another town destroyed via dragon slave. Though oddly enough the spell doesn't kill when used for comedic purposes...

She also knows the Giga Slave, a spell so powerful that if miscast it can end up destroying the world. And yes, she uses it several times, mostly when she honestly wishes she had some other choice (it's either this or the world is destroyed anyway).

Ah, Lina. What a spitfire. =^-^=

(Reply to this)


[info]randomposting
2007-08-30 06:01 am UTC (link)
Sounds really irritating.

(Reply to this)

Try these...
(Anonymous)
2008-02-27 01:44 am UTC (link)
Anna, I've been following your expat blog for a couple of years now, and hunted you up here to find out why there are no new posts. Your writing is absolutely delicious, and I live vicariously through your wanderings. But somehow, this was the post that is forcing me to leave a comment.

Have you ever heard of Tamara Pierce? She writes fiction for young adults. I've been reading her books since I was twelve- I'm 22 now, and find them as fascinating as ever. She and Robin McKinley are the two authors who blasted stereotypes so completely for me when I was young that I was never really exposed to them in the first place. (in Fantasy fiction, anyway.) Tamora Pierce has been writing for ages- she began writing because she was tired of boys always having the swords! Her Tortall books chronicle a world where a woman has to hide her gender for seven years to become a knight, to her becoming Kings's Champion, the most celebrated warrior in the land, her marrying, having children, (Still Champion!) and changing the law so that the next female who wants to become a knight can do so openly. The novels about Kel, the first female applicant, take on sexism without flinching- the idea that a woman can be a woman, AND a warrior, can be beautiful while being muscled, and can be valued for what she is - they are very very good books. None of her protagonists are beautiful in the classical sense. The wear armour, and have to do extra work to build muscle, and they scar, and they bleed, and they get their mentrual periods, and they win. And before my enthusiasm carries me away, I just must say about Mercedes Lackey- how can you not love an author who rewrote "Beauty and the Beast" as a novel (twice!) and rewrote Sleeping Beauty as a *horseleech* of the town of Foggy bottom-who has skin like ivory and hair like gold and teeth like pearls but isn't pretty? Read Spindle's End. The rambling style of writing might appeal to you. It starts

"The magic in that country was so thick and tenacious that it settled over the land like chalk-dust and over floors and shelves like slightly sticky plaster-dust. (Housecleaners in that country earned unusually good wages)"

Don't lose hope in Fantasy. Thank you for your wonderful blog.:)

JS

(Reply to this)


(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…