Anna ([info]troubleinchina) wrote,
@ 2007-08-21 23:29:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Current mood: cynical
Entry tags:faith hope trick - ponderings, fandom & feminism, no - i really *do* care that much, totally not a fan

What Do You Do About A Problem Like Elizabeth? - Heroes, Heroines, and Fandom
Ah, Elizabeth. Heroine of the Pirates movies, she starts out the series waiting for her life to begin, and ends the series waiting for her lover to return. In between, she learns about sword play, pirates, curses, and goddesses, and is thought of as the Mary-est Sue to Ever Mary Sue. Bring up Elizabeth and a large amount of the Pirates of the Caribbean fandom will roll their eyes and point you to their favourite slash fic. Elizabeth is too perfect, too amazing, too over the top - and too obviously set up as the love interest. {The term "Mary Sue" is defined at the bottom of this essay, for those unfamiliar with it.}

But is the problem that Elizabeth is too perfect, or that we have no one within the movie itself to truly compare her to?

In a series of movies where we've got a blacksmith's apprentice who made a sword so amazing that noting it goes so far as to get men killed, who is the best swordsman and can hold off men who would have been living by their skills in swordplay for their entire adult lives, who manages to cross and double cross everyone in an effective effort to free his father from a curse, marries the governor's daughter, and ends up as Captain of the Flying Dutchman and living forever ferrying the souls of the dead, Elizabeth is the Mary Sue?

Or is Will's character not seen as a Mary Sue in comparison to Jack, who somehow manages to effortlessly get everything he wants, manipulates events to the point where characters say "Do you think he plans it, or it just happens and he takes advantage of that fact?", who bargains his way out of multiple situations, is brought back from the dead (one could argue twice), happens to be one of the Nine Pirate Lords, the son of the keeper of the Pirate Codex, holder of a compass that points in the direction of one's greatest desire, and ends the series holding a map to the Fountain of Youth and a bottle of rum, off for new adventures?

In comparison, Elizabeth helps break pirate curses, hunts down her love in order to help save him, learns swordplay and how to run a ship, is loved by two men (Will and Norrington), becomes infatuated with Jack (who becomes infatuated with her), realises her true love is for Will and marries him, is kidnapped, bargained over, and stows away on various ships, becomes a Pirate Lord due to mistaken identify, becomes a Pirate King in order to further Jack's plans, and ends the series almost exactly where she began it - waiting.

The problem with Elizabeth isn't her storyline, or that she's beautiful, or that men seem to love her. The problem is, quite simply, that there's no other women with agency in the series with which to compare her. The only other major female role is that of Tia Dalma/Calypso - a woman with such little agency that she can't break her own curse, but has to wait for Barbossa to break it for her. She can neither direct the characters in how to break her curse, nor given them real direction on how to save Jack from Davy Jones' locker. All she can do is cast her bones, send out her crabs, and cause the maelstrom that helps kill the lover that betrayed her and bound her. Every other character with any form of story arc in the series - Norrington, Davy Jones, Beckett, Governor Swan - is male.

The problem with characters like Elizabeth is that there are so few actual heroines in fantasy, adventure, swashbuckling or action movies to compare her to, and those that exist tend to have at least some plot that is around how attractive they are to the hero, the villain, or both. Every one stands out, and every one looks larger than life, over the top, Mary Sue-ish.

The answer is so simple to me: We deserve more strong female characters who do more than stand around, look pretty, and wait to be rescued. More Fionas who lead Princess Revolts, more Mulans who fight Mongol Hordes, more April O'Neils who fight crime. More Elizabeths, who make rousing speeches and become Pirate Kings. Even better, we can have more than one strong female character in a movie, so they can be judged on the various roles they play within the movie, instead of compared to female characters who have no agency at all. Heck, we could even go so far as to have female characters that somehow avoid being love interests!

But how do we go from deserving strong female characters to actually getting them on the big screen? That is the big problem. Solutions that occur to me are supporting movies and other forms of media that show multiple strong female characters - be they comic books, novels, television shows, video games, or whatnot - with your dollars and your enthusiasm; supporting organisations like See Jane [which lobbeys for more female characters in children's media]and Girl Wonder [which agitates for less sexism in comics]; writing Joss Whedon and ask him why he keeps putting strong female characters in his shows (YouTube link - do watch the speech, it's marvelous); talking about issues with movies like Star Wars: Episode III: Rise of the Sith, the amazing disappearance of Padme's personality and the sudden lack of speaking roles for women; writing your own stories where women kick ass, take names, and then come back and kick more ass. Being critical, while still being a fan.

Elizabeth seems a Mary Sue because she is unique in the PotC universe. Let's solve that problem, so that our Heroines get to be just as kick ass, over the top, and heroic as our Heroes.




"Mary Sue" is the term used to describe 'perfect' female characters - you know, the ones who are beautiful, can do everything right, and everyone loves them, except the bad people. It was originally used to refer to perfect characters in fanfic {see [info]pottersues}, but is being used more often to refer to perfect canon characters {see [info]canon_sues}. They're often self-inserts (that is, characters based off the author, or an idealised version of the author). The male equivalent is either "Gary Stu" or "Marty Stu", depending on who you ask, and the term is used a lot less often. ]




(27 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]firynze
2007-08-21 04:01 pm UTC (link)
Well said. VERY well said.

writing your own stories where women kick ass, take names, and then come back and kick more ass

Workin' on it. I have an extremely strong, not-very-attractive-at-all chick in the novel I'm presently Not Finishing, and I'm hoping she stays that way. The men in the story are very much present, but Percy? Is the resident ass-kicker.

I like to think she makes up for the Total Plot Device girl in another of my stories...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 12:47 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

I just so want more women in general in stories, movies, games, and the like. I think a lot of the problems people have with so-called Mary Sues is partly because of what I've outlined here, and partly because creators toss a woman into the story and then give her so many traits - she's beautiful AND sassy AND can beat someone up AND cooks like a dream. (Hey, I think I just described half my flist, but anyway.) But, with more women in the story, the character traits can be spread around a bit, you know?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]firynze
2007-08-22 12:49 pm UTC (link)
*snerk*

Your flist is populated by Mary Sues. This explains so much!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 01:07 pm UTC (link)
I keep TELLING YOU. My flist is MADE OF WIN and AWESOME. Neville Longbottom would be on my flist.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]firynze
2007-08-22 01:21 pm UTC (link)
BWAHAHAH. He totally would.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]samincittagazze
2007-08-21 04:07 pm UTC (link)
I'm too short on time to make a proper reply, but I just wanted to note that I loved this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 12:48 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I appreciate it a lot - I was pretty nervous about writing it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]im_an_aaangel
2007-08-21 04:32 pm UTC (link)
I actually really loved Elizabeth and got kind of annoyed when everyone kept calling her a Mary Sue, just because she was so perfect. Honestly, what's wrong with having a character like that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 12:50 pm UTC (link)
If I were being cynical, I'd say "Well, it's a *girl*, so it's wrong" - See Will and Jack. ;)

But sincerely... I don't actually know, and I didn't think she was any more perfect or breaking of the genre than *anyone else* in the series at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]im_an_aaangel
2007-08-22 12:54 pm UTC (link)
Hmm.. one could almost say that Tia Dalma was perfect. She's a goddess, she's cool, she's hot.. she's got a better guy than Liz does, and she has powers. I guess a Mary Sue can't have a Jamaican accent..

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 01:02 pm UTC (link)
I don't know - I really did feel that Tia Dalma had absolutely no agency in the third movie. She can't seem to do anything on her own.

I adored her character, but I felt really frustrated with the portrayal. Does that make sense?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]im_an_aaangel
2007-08-22 01:05 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, there really wasn't enough action for her. I think if she'd at least gotten a chance to fight or do something special, then people could compare her to Elizabeth.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]parsimonia
2007-08-21 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Word.

writing your own stories where women kick ass, take names, and then come back and kick more ass

*sigh* I'd really like to, sometime.

re: Girl Wonder

LOVE that site.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 12:51 pm UTC (link)
Girl Wonder is truly love. I'm way behind due to all the travelling, but I'm really looking forward to curling up and catching up with GRC.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]gamerchick
2007-08-21 05:19 pm UTC (link)
This is a fantastic entry and I think that you are right on.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 12:52 pm UTC (link)
ICON! I was hoping you'd use that icon if you commented here, because the biggest reason I remember the speech is because of your icon. :)

Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dinpik
2007-08-21 07:31 pm UTC (link)
A Mary Sue is an original character that warps the canon universe around her: that's the definition I learned, that's the one I stick to.

The new version, to me, is all "OMG she gets to do stuff and she gets the guy and and and --!" To which my response is, "Yeah. So?"

Interestingly enough, someone claimed in a F_W post about Elizabeth's role in PotC, that if it were a man running after Will, it wouldn't be a Gary Su at all. And meant it.

Double-standard, anyone?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 12:58 pm UTC (link)
I actually really started thinking about it because of that particular entry on F_W and some of the discussion that went down on my flist over there.

I wish there were more strong women characters with agency in the fantasy movies - I think it's incredibly pathetic that I could only think of animated movies when I made my list of kick ass women. (I'm not sure if this is more of a comment on the genre, on movies in general, or of my viewing habits.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]metonymy
2007-08-21 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Excellent post.

I personally believe that Elizabeth went off and terrorized the world as the Pirate King anyway, and just returned ten years later. Because - if you had just been crowned Pirate King, would you go back to sitting around and waiting? I certainly wouldn't. So I tell myself this to keep from hating the movie. XD

There was a discussion at Pandagon about the movie Ratatouille that I had to stop reading when someone claimed that Mulan was all about getting the guy in the end. How can you miss that the entire point of the film is saving China? Argh.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 01:00 pm UTC (link)
And this is why I love fanfic. :) I've read some great stuff about Elizabeth kicking ass. As well she should.

Did you see the discussion about Disney heroes that went down a few weeks back? There was a vid making the rounds that seemed to completely miss the point of a lot of Disney films, including saying that Gaston is shown as who boys should want to be like in BatB.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Nothing much to say.
(Anonymous)
2007-08-21 09:21 pm UTC (link)
All I know is I want my "Wonder Woman" movie. Still can't believe that Joss Whedon got kicked off that project....

I was reading that at another site the other day. Apparently, Hollywood doesn't want to make movies about female superheroes because none have been a hit so far. Most people (myself included) argue that no female superhero movie has been a hit so far because the ones that have been made sucked.

Catwoman...Elektra...Aeon Flux...all bad, bad movies.

This is Scarecrow, by the way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Nothing much to say.
[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 01:03 pm UTC (link)
I haven't seen any of those movies, and haven't heard a good thing about them that I can recall, other than a comment on the fighting style in Catwoman.

You're right - they've been making *crappy* Superheroine movies. I do wish Joss could make Wonder Woman. I don't agree with everything he says or does, but he at least manages to believe women can kick ass, chew bubblegum, and change the world.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]imadra_blue
2007-08-22 06:46 am UTC (link)
I think you have a point there. Then again, especially in fandom, the Mary Sue witch hunts are in full force. It gets to the point that any OFC can be labelled a Mary Sue the moment she is anything approaching interesting and powerful. While I agree there are a lot of bad Mary Sues, I think we need to focus on bad characterization. Are the characters interesting? Likeable? If so, then who cares if they're a Sue or a Stu? No one cares to spy out or bitch about Gary Stus like they do the Sues. The equality of it is really quite annoying.

I like how you examined Elizabeth in context of her fellow male characters and the story she is in. My problem with Elizabeth is my problem with the whole movie trilogy--it's boring and I don't like it. Unpopular opinion, I know. I found the first movie acceptably amusing, but the other two are dull beyond recompense. But I never thought Elizabeth was a Sue; I think she fits into the world quite easily. And that's the problem with a lot of Mary Sues, what it all boils down to--they don't fit into the worlds.

Great topic!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]troubleinchina
2007-08-22 01:06 pm UTC (link)
Thank you!

I actually don't enjoy the Pirates movies. Which is fairly typical of me - I don't enjoy Harry Potter, either, but man do I love the Fandom. Same with Pirates. I could just live all day reading meta, fanfic, watching vids. (I read a lot of stuff on Supernatural being that I've seen a total of one episode!)

Elizabeth completely fits into the genre that she's in. I was talking last night with [info]padredon about it, and about the swashbuckling genre in general. We started on about games like 7th Sea and how everything in the Pirates movies fits well into that. It's an over-the-top, adventuring, swashbuckling fantasy movie. *Of course* Elizabeth is the Pirate King - why wouldn't she be?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]padredon
2007-08-22 06:37 pm UTC (link)
I meant to put this up yesterday but let myself get distracted. Trouble and I were talking on the phone shortly after she made this post and she was kicking herself for not including links to essays on the a minimal presence of people of colour in the movies and how the few non-caucasian characters are depicted. I could only nod and think about pirates...in the Caribbean. It may have been a while since I studied this but I seem to recall that piracy was one of the few means of freedom in a heavily slave based society. As fun as the movies may be on a superficial level there's some serious issues pretty close to the surface.

(Reply to this)


[info]sunryse00
2007-09-27 05:23 pm UTC (link)
here via a link by Lee Kottner

Very interesting essay and I whole heartedly agree with most of it. For me though I never had a problem with Elizabeth being a "Mary Sue" because I didn't see her that way, but I did have a problem with her ending exactly where she started. It almost felt like a sad commentary on womanhood in general...at least for me.

The answer is so simple to me: We deserve more strong female characters who do more than stand around, look pretty, and wait to be rescued. More Fionas who lead Princess Revolts, more Mulans who fight Mongol Hordes, more April O'Neils who fight crime. More Elizabeths, who make rousing speeches and become Pirate Kings. Even better, we can have more than one strong female character in a movie, so they can be judged on the various roles they play within the movie, instead of compared to female characters who have no agency at all. Heck, we could even go so far as to have female characters that somehow avoid being love interests!

I do want to comment on the above paragraph. This past weekend I saw "Resident Evil:Extinction" and enjoyed it very much, why? Because it had a strong female lead, not just a female waiting to be rescued. Reading the above I realized that it was more than just Alice, but that there were a number of strong females that took control, fought the fight, and kicked some major butt in the process.

I was a bit put out when I went looking to see the box office totals only to see that the majority of the theater goers were male (65%) and rated it lower than I did (B- to my A-). The article is here

Reading that article I began to wonder why more women weren't drawn to the movie. Marketing it as a male gamers action movie? The presence of zombies and gore? On second thought I began to wonder if women really don't want to see films with strong female leads, but rather movies dominated by male characters with females relegated to the love interest catagory since just about any action movie with a female lead does poorly at the box office.

So do women really just want to be rescued and not have to save the world, because that's what it would seem?

(Reply to this)

just test
(Anonymous)
2008-04-12 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Just
test

(Reply to this)


(27 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…